[gnso-rds-pdp-wg] New Year Challenge
Stephanie Perrin
stephanie.perrin at mail.utoronto.ca
Wed Jan 4 17:54:57 UTC 2017
Thanks very much everyone for this discussion, and Steve for this
clarification. I think you will have guessed by now (since I am somewhat
predictable) that I don't find the arrangements, whether formal or
informal, to be particularly beneficial to the uninformed end user. It
is not really clear to me that ICANN has provided enough language in the
RAA to ensure that contractual obligations which are (theoretically)
passed on to the reseller are enforced, other than by the good guys who
show up at ICANN. It is also becoming crystal clear that the "dumb"
user may not be dealing with someone who takes his/her fiduciary
responsibilities seriously, particularly with respect to the retention
of the domain. If I let someone register my small business name for me,
would I necessarily know that it was registered in a resellers name? IF
the reseller gets an offer, even a modest one, to buy the name, how
confident can I be that my registrar/reseller/hosting company will not
let it go to the higher bidder?
Finally on this topic, was the code of conduct mentioned in the RAA ever
finalized (I should know this but i don't, sorry....) And would that
code of conduct include duties of transparency to the end user?
cheers Stephanie
PS and apologies for this digression, but I am confident that I am not
the only one out there who does not understand the arcana of the
business in the kind of depth you folks do, and it is important that we
have a better understanding of how the market actually works.
On 2017-01-04 11:45, Metalitz, Steven wrote:
>
> Accepting that the label can be used more broadly in common parlance,
> for purposes of this Working Group, it’s clearer to stick to the legal
> definition, which might answer some of Stephanie’s original
> questions. So for example, resellers under the RAA take on
> essentially all the obligations of registrars, including obligations
> regarding “collecting registration data about the Registered Name
> Holders” (included within the definition of “Registrar Services”).
> Section 3.12 of the 2013 RAA sets this out rather comprehensively:
>
> 1.3.12 _Obligations Related to Provision of Registrar Services by
> Third Parties_. Registrar is responsible for the provision of
> Registrar Services for all Registered Names that Registrar sponsors
> being performed in compliance with this Agreement, regardless of
> whether the Registrar Services are provided by Registrar or a third
> party, including a Reseller. Registrar must enter into written
> agreements with all of its Resellers that enable Registrar to comply
> with and perform all of its obligations under this Agreement. In
> addition, Registrar must ensure that:
>
> 3.12.1 Its Resellers do not display the ICANN or ICANN-Accredited
> Registrar logo, or otherwise represent themselves as Accredited by
> ICANN, unless they have written permission from ICANN to do so.
>
> 3.12.2 Any registration agreement used by reseller shall include all
> registration agreement provisions and notices required by the ICANN
> Registrar Accreditation Agreement and any ICANN Consensus Policies,
> and shall identify the sponsoring registrar or provide a means for
> identifying the sponsoring registrar, such as a link to the InterNIC
> Whois lookup service.
>
> 3.12.3 Its Resellers identify the sponsoring registrar upon inquiry
> from the customer.
>
> 3.12.4 Its Resellers comply with any ICANN-adopted Specification or
> Policy that establishes a program for accreditation of individuals or
> entities who provide proxy and privacy registration services (a "Proxy
> Accreditation Program"). Among other features, the Proxy Accreditation
> Program may require that: (i) proxy and privacy registration services
> may only be provided in respect of domain name registrations by
> individuals or entities Accredited by ICANN pursuant to such Proxy
> Accreditation Program; and (ii) Registrar shall prohibit Resellers
> from knowingly accepting registrations from any provider of proxy and
> privacy registration services that is not Accredited by ICANN pursuant
> the Proxy Accreditation Program. Until such time as the Proxy
> Accreditation Program is established, Registrar shall require
> Resellers to comply with the Specification on Privacy and Proxy
> Registrations attached hereto.
>
> 3.12.5 Its Resellers' customers are provided with a link to an ICANN
> webpage detailing registrant educational information, as detailed in
> subsection 3.16 below.
>
> 3.12.6 In the event Registrar learns that a Reseller is causing
> Registrar to be in breach of any of the provisions of this Agreement,
> Registrar shall take reasonable steps to enforce its agreement with
> such Reseller so as to cure and prevent further instances of
> non-compliance.
>
> 3.12.7 Its Resellers shall publish on their website(s) and/or provide
> a link to the Registrants' Benefits and Responsibilities Specification
> attached hereto and shall not take any action inconsistent with the
> corresponding provisions of this Agreement or applicable law.
>
> Registrar shall use commercially reasonable efforts to enforce
> compliance with the provisions of the agreement between Registrar and
> any Reseller that relate to the provisions of Registrar Services.
>
> Additionally, under the Registrar Information Specification,
> registrars must provide to ICANN a list of all its known resellers,
> although it is not required to make this public. l
>
> *image001*
>
> *Steven J. Metalitz *|***Partner, through his professional corporation*
>
> T: 202.355.7902 |met at msk.com <mailto:met at msk.com>**
>
> *Mitchell Silberberg & Knupp**LLP*|*www.msk.com <http://www.msk.com/>*
>
> 1818 N Street NW, 8th Floor, Washington, DC 20036
>
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> YOUR SYSTEM. THANK YOU.*
>
> *From:*Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 04, 2017 11:27 AM
> *To:* Metalitz, Steven; Greg Shatan
> *Cc:* RDS PDP WG
> *Subject:* Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] New Year Challenge
>
> Hi Steven,
>
> while not reselling in the meaning of the RAA (I know the definition,
> I worked with ICANN to write it), they are still resellers in the
> broader term of the word, and in the eyes of many not that deep into
> the legal definition in the RAA.
>
> Best,
>
> Volker
>
> Am 04.01.2017 um 17:10 schrieb Metalitz, Steven:
>
> Volker,
>
> The entities you describe do not sound like resellers within the
> meaning of the RAA:
>
> 1.24 A "Reseller" is a person or entity that participates in
> Registrar's distribution channel for domain name registrations (a)
> pursuant to an agreement, arrangement or understanding with
> Registrar or (b) with Registrar's actual knowledge, provides some
> or all Registrar Services, including collecting registration data
> about Registered Name Holders, submitting that data to Registrar,
> or facilitating the entry of the registration agreement between
> the Registrar and the Registered Name Holder.
>
> *image001*
>
> *Steven J. Metalitz *|***Partner, through his professional
> corporation*
>
> T: 202.355.7902 | met at msk.com <mailto:met at msk.com>
>
> *Mitchell Silberberg & Knupp**LLP*|*www.msk.com <http://www.msk.com/>*
>
> 1818 N Street NW, 8th Floor, Washington, DC 20036
>
> *_THE INFORMATION CONTAINED IN THIS E-MAIL MESSAGE IS INTENDED
> ONLY FOR THE PERSONAL AND CONFIDENTIAL USE OF THE DESIGNATED
> RECIPIENTS._**THIS MESSAGE MAY BE AN ATTORNEY-CLIENT
> COMMUNICATION, AND AS SUCH IS PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL. IF THE
> READER OF THIS MESSAGE IS NOT AN INTENDED RECIPIENT, YOU ARE
> HEREBY NOTIFIED THAT ANY REVIEW, USE, DISSEMINATION, FORWARDING OR
> COPYING OF THIS MESSAGE IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED. PLEASE NOTIFY US
> IMMEDIATELY BY REPLY E-MAIL OR TELEPHONE, AND DELETE THE ORIGINAL
> MESSAGE AND ALL ATTACHMENTS FROM YOUR SYSTEM. THANK YOU.*
>
> *From:*gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org
> <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org>
> [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces at icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Volker
> Greimann
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 04, 2017 10:51 AM
> *To:* Greg Shatan
> *Cc:* RDS PDP WG
> *Subject:* Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] New Year Challenge
>
> Hi Greg,
>
> we have hundreds of resellers who do not self-identify as such.
> They open end customer accounts and register domains for others,
> as their agents. No reseller agreements are in place in such cases
> as we have no way of knowing. Consider for example web-developers
> registering domains for their clients with a registrar. Or lawyers
> registering domains for their clients.
>
> I am using the term agent loosely in the sense of: "an entity
> doing things at the request of another entity - whatever their
> contractual relationship may be".
>
> Am 04.01.2017 um 16:31 schrieb Greg Shatan:
>
> Volker,
>
> What types of cases are you thinking of? And how do reseller
> agreements in these cases reflect that difference?
>
> In either case, are we talking about a true legal
> "principal-agent" relationship? (Defined as "A consensual
> relationship created by contract or by law where one party,
> the principal, grants authority for another party, the agent,
> to act on behalf of and under the control of the principal to
> deal with a third party. An agency relationship is fiduciary
> in nature [to the benefit of the principal], and the actions
> and words of an agent exchanged with a third party bind the
> principal."? Or are we using the term "agent" more loosely?
>
> Thanks for any light you can shed on the topic.
>
> Greg
>
> On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 5:49 AM, Volker Greimann
> <vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>>
> wrote:
>
> This is not always the case. Many resellers are more like
> agents of the registrant than agents of the registrar.
>
> Best,
>
> Volker
>
> Am 03.01.2017 um 23:51 schrieb Alan Greenberg:
>
> How resellers work is relatively straight forward. They
> are agents working on behalf of a registrar. The handle
> the transaction and often ongoing contact with the
> registrant. Some registrars have no resellers, others some
> resellers, and some registrars only work through resellers
> and have no direct registratns. Of course, you may find
> that a reseller is really a subsidiary of the registrar
> (or in some other business relationship with them other
> than purely a reseller).
>
> Until relatively recently, ICANN took the position that
> since they had no contract with resellers, they had no
> control over what resellers did. In more recent RAAs,
> there are explicit clauses which require that if a
> registrar delegates anything to resellers, that they must
> ensure that the reseller fulfill any obligations that the
> registrar would have if they were dealing with the
> registrant directly. Past RAAs only covereed some of these
> requirements but my recollection is that the current RAA
> pretty much puts a registrant in the same situation
> regardless of whether they are dealing with the registrar
> directly or a reseller (I may be wrong about that, but
> that is my recollection).
>
> Of course, it is up to the registrar to ensure that these
> obligations are followed, or ICANN compliance to identify
> places where they may not be doing so.
>
> Is that any clearer?
>
> Alan
>
>
>
> At 03/01/2017 02:56 PM, Stephanie Perrin wrote:
>
>
>
> Happy New Year all! You are probably going to hate me
> because I am going to slow us down again. The problem is
> that we frame the discussion and thinking so very
> differently, depending on the expertise that we bring to
> this debate, that understanding the minutiae is very
> important. For instance on a recent call I questioned
> whether an individual needed to look at WHOIS to see who
> their registrar is, and was promptly corrected in this
> matter. Naive person that I am, I had never plumbed the
> depths of the reseller business, and I am not finding much
> useful information on the ICANN site that will help me do
> this (please help and point me to how this happens, what
> kind of contracts pass on obligations, how this is
> interpreted under DP law, why I cannot find my registrar
> on any of the lists of ICANN accredited registrars,
> consumer protection obligations under US law, how this
> works in the privacy proxy business etc.). IN my
> responses to the questionnaire, I have pointed out that it
> is the registrars and registries or their agents that
> collect/generate the Thin data. The proposed RDS, which at
> the moment is still protean, is not an entity, cannot
> collect etc, but is instead a display mechanism or
> automated disclosure instrument. So framing this in terms
> of collection is in my view quite misleading, unless I am
> totally misunderstanding the poll (always possible).
>
> Anyway if anyone can help me understand how resellers work
> I would be most grateful. It would probably also save us
> a pile of time if I understood it better, if that can
> possibly incentivize some brave soul.....
>
> cheers Stephanie Perrin
>
>
>
> On 2017-01-03 10:31, Gomes, Chuck wrote:
>
>
> A few weeks ago one of our WG members said something to me
> that I think might be a good challenge for many of us as
> we begin 2017: “I think people (including me) need to
> snap back to attention. I think we lost focus because of
> the incredible amount of lost traffic on minutiae that was
> so hard for non-ICANN insiders to follow.”
>
> If this applies to you, I hope you will respond.
>
> I can tell you that no one gets more frustrated with
> minutiae than me. I have just been at this for so long
> that I have learned minutiae for one person is important
> to someone else so I have realized that I have to have a
> lot of patience. Still, I often find myself wanting to
> push faster ahead and the leadership team has to pull me back.
>
> It has taken us about 11 months to get to where we are and
> it may seem like we have made very little progress but I
> am hopeful that we have laid some building blocks that
> will make our work ahead easier. We need to all keep in
> mind that the ICANN community has been grappling with
> Whois (RDS) issues for most of its 18-year existence with
> very minimal progress. If we are going to change that
> pattern, we will have to be patient and persistent.
>
> As we ended 2016 we reached the critical deliberation
> stage of Work Plan Phase 1. None of us should think that
> that will be easy or quick; it won’t be. But I am
> confident that we will start to see more concrete results
> of our efforts.
>
> I encourage all of you to start off this year by
> completing the poll that was distributed last week. You
> have until Friday of this week to complete it. Here is
> the link to the poll: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/V3CWZBL .
>
> Happy New Year.
>
> Chuck
>
>
>
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> Volker A. Greimann
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> Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
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> www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
> --------------------------------------------
> Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
> Best regards,
> Volker A. Greimann
> - legal department -
> Key-Systems GmbH
> Im Oberen Werk 1
> 66386 St. Ingbert
> Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
> Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
> Email:vgreimann at key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann at key-systems.net>
> Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net>
> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
> www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
> www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
> CEO: Alexander Siffrin
> Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
> V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
> Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
> www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
>
>
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